Forgiving Osama bin Laden Subscribe   
  From:  PINE1320   12/8/2001 1:18 am  
To:  ALL   (1 of 8)  
 
  285.1  
 
I am not proud to confess this but the truth is, I have not come to a complete forgiveness of Osama. In fact, there is a part of me that would like to see the US Forces kill that man. 
I know this is not how a professing Christian should think or feel but this is just too hard and too recent to forgive. I know people who were effected by this tragedy and I know that they too are having a hard time forgiving these acts. 

Anyone else feel this same way?



May the windows of heaven be opened
and the blessings of the Lord pour upon you!

Pine1320



I have opinions of my own -- strong opinions -- but I don't always agree with them."
President George Bush 
  
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From:  David (DavidABrown)    12/8/2001 7:12 pm  
To:  PINE1320    
 
    
 
Hi,

I found this intresting Article. I'm still working out my thoughts on this topic.

All The Best,
Have a Jesus :o) Day!
David

Source http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/helpincrisis/

Should We Forgive Terrorists?
by  Mart De Haan 
  
Been Thinking

The front page of our local newspaper carried the story of peace activists protesting the use of bombs to fight international terrorism. The article included a photo of a child carrying a sign asking, "What Would Jesus Do?"

The question on the sign is important. Jesus said that if we dont forgive others, the Father in heaven will not forgive us (Matthew 6:14-15). But was He telling us to forgive those who have not had a change of heart? Not according to the rest of the Scriptures. 

Dont misunderstand me. Im not an advocate of vengeance. I need forgiveness as much as anyone. I see how unbecoming it is to receive mountains of forgiveness from heaven, only to withhold handfuls from those who hurt us on earth. But if we are not careful with forgiveness, we may unintentionally strengthen the grip of dangerous people. 

Lets take another look at what the Bible asks of us. 

1. There is a difference between love and forgiveness. God loves everyone, and He shows mercy to all (Matthew 5:45). But He does not forgive everyone. He offers forgiveness with conditions because there are some attitudes He will not forgive. As compassionate as He is, He wont lift the burden of guilt from those who refuse to acknowledge their need for mercy. 

But someone says, "Youre missing the point. Vengeance is Gods business, not ours. We dont forgive to let those who have harmed us off the hook. We forgive to turn the offenders over to God and to get the bitterness and anger out of our own stomachs. If we dont forgive, our own anger will consume us."

Vengeance does belong to God alone. But will a watching world see us acting nobly and lovingly when we offer forgiveness to unrepentant, dangerous people? My guess is that others will think we are dangerously naive and only forgiving for our own emotional survival. 

2. Everyone can be forgiven, but only some qualify. God forgives repentant people. His heart reaches out to those who are contrite and broken (Isaiah 66:2). But He does not forgive those who consciously hide and cling to their wrongs. Neither does He teach us to automatically forgive everyone who has wronged us. 

Instead, the God of the Bible teaches us to pray for our enemies. He teaches us to lovingly confront those who have harmed us and to forgive those who acknowledge their wrong (Matthew 18:15-18; Luke 17:1-4; 1 Corinthians 5:1-8; 2 Corinthians 2:6-11). 

3. Christs warnings need to be understood. We cant afford to misunderstand the words of Jesus, "If you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses" (Matthew 6:15). He wasnt teaching us to automatically forgive everyone who harms us. His warning was for those whose hearts are hard and unrelenting toward those who ask for our forgiveness. His loving anger is a warning of what happens when we refuse to give repentant people the mercy we ourselves have received (Matthew 18:23-35). 

4. Neither love nor forgiveness eliminates the need for social justice and national security. Acts of terrorism are not just crimes against individuals. By design they are attacks against the State. As a result they fall into a different category than personal insult and harm. Assaults on national security are similar to the threats we find king David responding to in some of his national songs of judgment. 

In several of his well-known Old Testament psalms, David called for the utter destruction of the enemy. Because he expressed a cry for judgment rather than mercy, many think that his prayers are inconsistent with the spirit of Christ. But its important to realize that when David wrote as the King of Israel, his cries for help were not only for himself but for the security of his people (Psalms 5, 11, 17, 35, 55, 59, 69, 109, 137, and 140). 

Much of the Bible shows that there is a time for war, just as there is a time for peace. Although war has terrible consequences, leaders who love their people must take severe action against aggressors. The apostle Paul supported this governmental justice when he wrote that the authorities do not bear the sword in vain but are Gods servants to execute justice on those who do evil (Romans 13:4).

5. To love is more important than to forgive. To care, even for those we must go to war against, is Christlike. Even when our military is dropping bombs on those our leaders have declared enemies of the State, love teaches us to "cry inside" for those who are suffering. Many, after all, are suffering not for their own wrongs, but for the wrongs of their leaders. 

When a terrorist is killed, we can be thankful that the person no longer poses a threat to others. But God takes no pleasure in the death of His enemies (Ezekiel 33:11), and neither will we if our hearts are filled with the compassion of Christ.

6. Love fulfills the principle of forgiveness. As followers of Christ, we are to be known for our forgiveness. Even more, we are to be known for our love (Galatians 5:14). All biblical principles can be misapplied and misused if they are not motivated by a heart of enlightened love. 

But what does this love look like? It is a love that walks in the clothes of the wisdom and principles of the Bible. This love is what prompted the apostle Paul to write, "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself" (Galatians 5:14).

Christlike love needs to set the tone and rhythm of our lives. We are to be known not only for our willingness to offer timely forgiveness but also for our willingness to stand against oppressors, while acting courageously in behalf of those who have no voice or strength of their own. 

Father in heaven, sometimes we have forgiven only for our own sake, rather than for Your sake and the good of others. Please teach us to forgive as You have forgiven us. Show us how to compassionately stand with victims. Help us confront and stop oppressors, without taking delight in their pain or death. 

Help In Crisis Home




David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/23/2001 8:46 pm  
To:  PINE1320 unread  (3 of 8)  
 
  285.3 in reply to 285.1  
 
the Bible teaches us that although we may not agree with the abominable acts that others cause or create; it is our duty as children of God to forgive them earnestly. Keep in mind that to obtain Gods forgiveness, we MUST forgive all others. This is one of those points where you must let God take over and fight the emotion telling you that you want him dead! That, in fact, is Satan trying to interfere with your Godly relationship.
May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    12/24/2001 5:17 am  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (4 of 8)  
 
  285.4 in reply to 285.3  
 
Hi Pentitent,

 

Excellent Posting!

 

I hope to see more postings along those lines.

 

God Bless You,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  123four   12/25/2001 11:50 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (6 of 8)  
 
  285.6 in reply to 285.3  
 
Thank you for your post. I would like to 
add that while Jesus was being crucified 
and was suffering there on that cross, He 
was still forgiving of those doing this 
to Him. He said, 'Father, forgive them, 
because they know not what they do.'. Now 
these people did not ask for Jesus or God 
to forgive them, as they were not repentent 
and so felt no need for it. When Stephen was 
being stoned, he also asked God to forgive 
those stoning him to death, WHILE they 
were doing it. He asked God not to hold it 
to 'their charge.' These are examples of 
Godly thinking and heart attitudes. 
In neither case were the sinners expected 
to confess and repent before they were 
forgiven. Saul, in fact, was consenting 
of the death of Stephen and held the coats 
for those killing Stephen. I believe it was 
this prayer that Stephen prayed that brought 
God on the scene in that marvelous Damascus 
Road experience, where the brightness of 
God was manifest to Saul, and then of course, 
Saul came to know God and God used Him to 
pen a large part of the scriptures. 

I know, it is hard thing to do sometimes, 
we want to (this human fleshly part of us) 
see the person suffer who wronged us, but 
should we also remember that WHILE WE WERE 
YET IN SIN, THAT JESUS DIED FOR US? wHY? 
So that we could have eternal life, 
of course. Was this hard to do? It was the 
choice of Jesus. This is the God kind of 
love-or the AGAPE kind of love. Can we 
develop this kind of love? Yes, we can, 
if we want to and we allow God in us 
to show us the way to live. 

This prayer Stephen prayed was so powerful 
because he was dying at the time he prayed 
it, yet there he found love in his heart. 
What enabled Stephen to do this Godly act 
of sincere prayer? He had to have made 
a commitment as Jesus had, which was 
'not my will, but thine'. 

As I see it, it just depends on whether or 
not we have total commitment to God, whether 
or not we desire to forgive others. I am 
thinking again of the fact that Jesus gave 
his life -while we were in sin- so that 
provision for our life eternal would be 
made FOR us! Now, we had certainly not 
asked for forgiveness, nor had we repented 
when this great act of love was completed 
for us. He did not require us to ask for 
forgiveness before He chose to give Himself 
for us. Why did He do it this way? 
He loved us. 





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 12/26/2001 3:05:07 AM ET by 123FOUR 
  
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  From:  Jim (pentitent)    12/26/2001 5:56 pm  
To:  123four   (7 of 8)  
 
  285.7 in reply to 285.6  
 
I agree. the more commited we are to God, the more we can expect from Him. I agree that Jesus asked forgiveness for the Romans who physically crucified Him and that is what any Godly person would do. And God probably forgave them, because they weren't learned about Christ and actually were ignorant in what they did. As far as the stoning of Steven, he did ask God to forgive them, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were forgiven. We all know that to obtain forgiveness, we must humbly ask for ourselves. We can ask for as many others as we want, but that will not assure their salvation, unless they do it too. And we know Saul/Paul was a great instrument for Christ. I read his writings and am assured that they were inspired by God. But not all people believe that. I didn't accept Christ into my life until I was 34. Though my brother, a minister, had worked on me continuously from the time he was ordained. Now I read and study and believe what I read. But I talk to Jack [my brother] yesterday on the phone [we are 1000 miles apart] and we got into a Biblical discussion. 
I've heard all these TV Evangelist give their own translations, and preachers in the Churches I've attended also pervert the Word; but never thought my brother would. But he said that some of the things Paul wrote may not have been inspired by God. It broke my heart. I finally made it to Christ, and am striving to know more, and now Satan is trying to use my own brother to cause me to believe other than the truth. I still believe ever Word, whether written by Paul, Petter, Matthew, John, etc. are ALL inspired by God. I pray I can bring my brother back to the truth, because I love him and Christ does too!
May God bless and keep you, my brothers and sisters! 

 
  
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   From:  123four   12/26/2001 6:58 pm  
To:  Jim (pentitent)    (8 of 8)  
 
  285.8 in reply to 285.7  
 
Stephen was a man full of faith and full 
of the Holy Ghost, the scriptures say. 
I believe that and I doubt Stephen would 
seriously pray as he did in such horrible 
circumstance he was in, unless he was 
praying under direction of the Holy Spirit 
I have no doubt his prayer was answered, 
as we can see Paul living his Godly life 
later. Of course, Paul came to God on 
his own, but clearly Stephen's prayer 
for Paul was the beginning of God's dealings 
with Paul/Saul. I think you have to consider 
also why would Jesus ask God to forgive 
those who crucified him, if there were no 
point in it, and if he knew God would not? 
Forgiveness is still forgiveness no matter 
what the sin or circumstance. God is more 
gracious than we are-being plenteous in 
mercy and grace and so will always go further 
than us humans made out of dust will to 
forgive anyone. We must also forgive others, 
whether they ask us or not. That's not 
important. What's important is that our 
own hearts are hearts willing to forgive 
just like the heart of Jesus is. One good 
example of that is that of Jesus praying 
for God to forgive those, and the very 
fact that while we were in sin, he loved 
us so much, he went before us and provided 
a way for salvation. This was not done because 
we recognized our sins, or were somehow 
deserving of forgiveness while another was 
not. He did it out of his own love for us. 
Nothing can motivate forgiveness like love. 
I am sorry to hear about your brother. I know 
it really hurts when we see someone get away 
from the Word. These are the last days and 
we are seeing more of that, and from some 
of the people that we least expect to see it. 
It's just like someone stabs us with a knife 
when we see it. Let's all pray for this man 
and your brother, that the Holy Spirit will 
guide Him into all Truth once again and 
renew His mind as He calls Him to read the 
Words of God. ONce his mind is renewed he 
will realize the error of his thinking. God 
is good and it is He who keeps us, not we 
who keep Him. :) God is going to perfect 
all those things that concern us. He is not 
going to leave us or forsake us. I am praying 
that the Spirit of God give your brother such 
a hunger and thirst for God's Word that he 
studies more, reads more, hears more of the 
Word and that He rejoices in it, as the 
Spirit reveals God in that Word to Him.
 
  
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